Let's Talk

[NewCreation]

Ok Dirk, Let's talk!

I have read many, many articles on this site and 3 complete books with appendix's by Steve Bray, and have found nothing so far that I would outright disagree with. In fact, the Lord has been guiding me in this direction for the past few years, ever since I told Him I wanted to know the real truth!

Striving to live as a Christian for over 40 years, I still had more questions than answers (and probably always will) and never seemed to live the victorious way I read about in the Bible. I have always seen way too much division, strife and garbage in the current day church compared to what I read of the early church in the book of Acts. I have, as a result, felt that somewhere down the line we had lost some critical understanding that needed to be addressed. Now I feel like God has brought me to a road that I must walk to enter into His complete truth, and as someone who has been walking that road for awhile I would like to pick your brain a bit.

I really don't know what to ask you, but feel that the books and articles I have read do not quite explain how one is to "get started" in this walk. I understand the concept of dying to self, but I guess I could use some personal experiences from you or others about how you did this in your own life. Personally, I have no real desires to become wealthy, or to gain any reputation in this life. It hasn't always been this way, but over the years the Lord has taken that junk out of me. I do sincerely desire to accomplish those things that the Lord has for me to do, and I pray all the time that my life will reveal His glory and that I will remain humble and lowly. I pray that His will be done, not mine!

Ok, I feel like I'm starting to ramble here, so I'm going to stop and hope that you can come back with a little guidance to help me along the way. I look forward to learning from you.

Thanks,
NewCreation

[Bondslavenchrist]

Dear New Creation, (I would appreciate knowing your name)

Wow, you don't ask much, do you?

Although to me it sounds as though you have already done so. let me say that one of the very first things I believe is necessary to really move forward is to choose to be willing to be wrong no matter what, before the Lord.

What I mean is this. When we begin this life of laying down our self lives, we must realize and beleive that we have been lied to and held many false doctrines/teachings. Therefore, let us put it ALL on the table. Every bit of it. There should be nothing 'sacred' in this quest for HIS ABSOLUTE TRUTH. We have spent years trying figure it all out ourselves; deciding for ourselves what was correct what was incorrect, what was good what was bad, etc. We were the ones deciding. We did not go to God to ask Him what HE said about anything.

Instead, we would take our dictionaries, concordances, commentaries, study bibles, and any other reference book we could find, or use. Then we would look them over on a subject or a passage. We would then decide what the bible was saying. Many of us even went so far as to find out the Greek and Hebrew words, the tenses, word usages, phraseology, etc, and using man made tools and ideas, man-made science of hermaneutics, theology, and all those other big words I now forget, and then decide from our own minds what the Bible was saying.

We have done this so well, that we have gone from under 100 denominations prior to the 1611 King James Bible to over 30,000 denominations today. All saying that they believe the Bible to be true and that they live and believe the Bible.

Yet they often contradict one another. That is impossible IF we are all listening to the Holy Spirit. Therefore, we must recognize that man has gotten in the way of God.

We must stop this never ending story of figuring it out for ourselves. Seems to me that God did not like that very well otherwise He would NOT have told Adam and Eve NOT to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Therefore, this must CEASE!

We have to stop figuring it out ourselves.

Instead, we must develop a TRUE relationship with the Holy Spirit as our teacher and I do not mean through books or man-made references. I mean the HOLY SPIRIT, the real Person. We have to develop a relationship with HIM so that we can actually be taught by Him. If we don't do this, we will never get anywhere.

We will not be taught by the Lord until we truly have this heart attitude that says show me YOUR truth and if I hold any teaching or doctrine that is contrary to it, I will immediately throw it away, never to look upon it again except as something not worthy to be stepped on.

I see that as a beginning point. Unless we do this, nothing else will ever happen.

Let me know if you understand this or not and whether or not this is already something you have acquired in your life. Then we can move on.

a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

[NewCreation]

Thanks Dirk, I appreciate your quick response.

Sorry, my name is Roger. I should have let you know before.

Yes, I have had that talk with the Lord a few times about showing me His truth. I've told Him that I don't care if He has to destroy everything I've ever believed about Him, but I want to know the real truth. That was a few years ago, and since then He has shown me that much of what I used to believe is garbage.

I used to do some teaching when I belonged to a church, went on mission trips, etc. I did anything I could do to be of service to God. I have repented for all of that and now believe that it was all works that I performed to try to appease God! I have come to a place where I know that I need to cease my works and live by faith in Him.

I can't say that I have established a true relationship with the Holy Spirit yet. I do believe that God will speak to us, but actually now that I have known lots of people who claim to hear from Him, but still insist on doing all their own things, I'm not so sure how to discern His voice. I know that sometimes I just know things that I never knew before and I believe that is God simply dropping things into my spirit.

Maybe you could give me a few pointers on developing that relationship. I pray and praise Him much of the time as I do a lot of driving on my job and it is the perfect opportunity for that. As I have said, I have asked Him to show me the real truth and I feel He has done that in several different ways, but that doesn't mean I have a very close personal relationship with Him.

Actually, I have been taught some methods to "get close to God" like fasting, marathon praying until He answers, etc. but I really feel like none of those things ever worked very well and now I even see that as trying to manipulate God into doing what I want.

Ok, that should give you an idea where I am at, so I hope we can go from here.

Thanks and God bless,
Roger

[Bondslavenchrist]

Dear Roger (and anyone else reading these posts)

You are correct about most of what we have learned before is garbage. Even when there is truth in it, it is contaminated with the self-life most of the time. Rarely do we hear anything that does not have it’s origins in self; especially in this day. If we go back 50 and more years, we will begin to see more messages that came through yielded vessels that spoke far more clearly than almost any today. People like Tozer, Murray, Wesley, Clarke, and many others back in those days. Today we have a very few and many of those are no longer with us, Ravenhill for one and I will also add Steve Bray as another.

Yes, a great deal of what passes for spiritual work is initiated by the flesh and actually encourages the indugence of the flesh. (see Col 2 at the end of the Chapter)

Ok, how do we encourage, develop a relationship with the Holy Spirit? We go to the scriptures and ask the Lord. Suggestion>>> read John 14-17 with a humble attitude to be taught about our own lack. What does Jesus tell us are the requirements of receiving the Holy Spirit? Are we actually living in that manner or do we do things that contradict His commands in this area? I can see from memory right now that one of the BIG requirements for receiving the HolySpirit is OBEDIENCE! Unless we have an attitiude of I WILL OBEY, I have come to do Your will O Father of Lights, we will never be taught by the Holy Spirit.

Much of what we, as the church, put on God saying we will be the people He wants when He does certain things, puts all of the responsibility on God. BUT, in reality, it is our responsibility. We are to absolutely TRUST God. What does that mean?

When I flip a light switch on, I KNOW the light will come on. If it doesn’t, I look to see if it is plugged in, is the bulb burned out and a last resort is if the electricity is off for some reason. I do not consider that for some reason electricty no longer does what it used to, that lights have somehow changed so that physics no longer works. I look for a cause for the failure, because an interuption of the power to the light element is the only thing to prevent the light from working.

THAT is how we are to trust God. If He says something, that is the way it is, PERIOD! If it does not work, there MUST be a reason his power did not operate, we are not completely the spiritual circuit somehow. That should be what we always look to. We should NEVER even begin to suggest that God no longer does that or that this time He said NO! If we are truly praying (that means we have found out what His will is and that it is complimentary to the Bible and we KNOW He wants to do this) then He WILL DO the thing we ask if we ask in faith.

There should be no doubt about that.

Getting close to God means often that we just believe that He not only wants to speak to us but that He will and DOES speak to us. (this assumes that we have a humble, obedient attitude) The problem is, this takes TIME to develop. We in America do not want to take time. We want what we want NOW or better yet, YESTERDAY! That is why the Church is in so much sin, they will do whatever it takes to get what they want even if it contradicts the scriptures. They are unwilling to allow God to change them on the inside so that their outside reflects what has already occurred in their heart.

They want to be in control and still enter the Kingdom.

The real problem with that is, God is the Ruler of His Kingdom and only HE is in control. So unless we submit to His absolute RULE, we cannot Enter! This is why Churches teach the things they do that seem to manipulate God. In reality, they are mostly dealing with demons who are granting them “wishes” for allowing the demons to operate in their lives. There is little of God left in the Church.

This is not to say that God does not touch people, heal, even get people saved. But rather most of what goes on in the vast majority of Church services has its origin in self instead of God.
Let me be the frist to admit that I do not know everything, that I am still finding my way to this place of REST in Christ Jesus. However, I have gone far enough along this road to KNOW that what I am saying is true, that He has changed me radically without my help, and that He continues to show me the same way though I am always willing to be corrected by Him. I have learned far more in the last several months than I have in the last few years. I praise God for Steve Bray. He was a servant of God who truly lived what He believed and was able to communicate that understanding to others in his writings.

No, I do not worship him. I Praise God for him and what GOD accomplished in him. I have been looking for some of the same things, that you, Roger have asked about. I KNEW that there was a Vast Difference between what I read in the Bible and what I have seen in the Church today. If God is real, it ought NOT to be that way. What happened then, the way they lived at that time, should be the same TODAY! If not, either it is all false OR we missed something somewhere.

Well, since I have had several experiences with the Lord that cannot be explained and basically, God proved he was real to me, that leaves only one option; we have been missing something.

What is it?

We rely on ourselves and NOT ON GOD! We have continually been taught in the Church to feast on the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, not just eat from it. We promote figuring out what the Bible says instead of learning from the Holy Spirit. We think we can read the Bible and figure it out with all of our commentaries, dictionaries, lexicons, concordances, and any other reference book you can think of. Yet who is it that devised all of these things? MAN!

Who inspired the Bible? The Holy Spirit. We are told that only the Holy Spirit can teach us God’s truth that is in the Bible and yet we will only give lip service to this idea. Practically, we rely on ourselves and NOT on the Lord to tell us what the Bible teaches.

Therefore, we must repent. Repent from relying on ourselves, repent from ourselves. You see, we have to stop being us so that we can be children of God. Our personality can only be changed by the Lord but we can never change who we are. We must repent from being unsaved, carnal, natural people and ask the Lord to make us into His children because we KNOW that unless HE does it, it will NEVER be done!

That is something the modern Church does not ever talk about or deal with. So, how do we go about this? We go to the scriptures. We lay down our knowledge of what it says and means and ask the Lord to teach us by the Holy Spirt, HIS ABSOLUTE TRUTH. Then we TRUST HIM to do so; remember what trust means?

If He is not teaching us, then we go back to find out what connection has been broken between us and the Lord. It will never be Him but it will always be something in us. Are we humble, teachable, willing to be wrong about everything we have ever held dear? Is there is any sin in our lives at all? Are there any sins we have NOT repented of? Have we asked Him to create in us a TRULY CLEAN and HOLY HEART and believe that He has done so? Are there sins of commission or ommission left that have not been dealt with? Are we refusing to pay back money we owe if we can do so?

All of these kinds of things will keep us from receiving from Him. Is there any sensual sins, lusts, drunkenness, gossip, adultery, fornication of any kind, hidden sins of the heart, etc, that have not been confessed and REPENTED FROM? When I say repent, I mean it is NO LONGER an option in our lives.

All of this will keep us back. We have to be willing to admit that we cannot do it at all. There is NOTHING we can offer to God that will help, except our helplessness! No amount of trying, striving, will power, determination, talent, prayer, bible study, fasting, etc, will ever make us closer to God or cause us to be more godly.

The ONLY thing that will ever do this is when we cease doing it at all and begin to trust Him to accomplish it in our lives. It is this, among other things, that I believe has kept the Church back from realizing the reality of Acts today.

Now, I have gone on quite at length. I will stop now and let all reaad this, absorb it, and take it to the Lord. See if He agrees with these things. See if He offers more or other suggestions. Am I totally off base here? Let me know.

But we all must remember this>>>> We will not get better. God has condemned us to the cross so that the very life of Christ Jesus may be resurrected within us on this earth and we might walk as HE walked, bring God all the Glory.


God bless you all!

A bondslave in Chris Jesus, Dirk

[NewCreation]

Dirk,

Thanks brother for your excellent reply. I have read it a couple of times and as I did the Holy Spirit quickened to me that I AM doing much of this in my own life. By that I mean that I have totally surrendered everything to God, and I continue to do that daily. I have actually been surprised at the changes the Lord has brought about in my life. One that comes to mind immediately is the fact that I no longer judge people like I used to. I have always had very little tolerance for those I see who take advantage of others to "improve" their own situation. I have always worked at being completely honest in all my dealings with others and have despised those who are dishonest for any reason, especially those who prey on the poor. The Lord has taken that disdain away from me and now I am actually able to see why some of these people do the things they do, ie.... because they do not trust the Lord to sustain them, or they are afraid of being "hurt" or a host of other things, but always it is centered in them!! He has shown me that none of us have a choice without Him, but to live the self centered life that is "fallen man". In short He has helped me to hate the sin, but love the sinner, something I NEVER could have accomplished on my own.

You and the Holy Spirit have restored my confidence that He is actually working in my life, even much more than I realize. It's been very hard for me to let go and allow God to do it all. I was one of 7 children in a very poor family and learned at a very young age that I had to take care of myself because my earthly father was not interested in fulfilling his role as a provider. I grew up in a dairy farming area and was able to work for many of the surrounding farmers to make my own money so that I could afford to buy my own clothes, etc. I did most of this based on the fact that I just wanted to be like every one else and have decent clothing, etc. so I would not be ridiculed and made fun of. As a result, I basically have been self sufficient to a large degree since around the age of 12 or 13. Any time that I needed a little more, of anything, I knew that I must DO a little more to earn extra. As a result, I learned that I was IN CHARGE of my OWN destiny and no one else even cared whether or not I made it. Even though I have forgiven my parents (actually it's funny that I never really blamed them for my circumstances, I just took it upon myself to change my personal situation) I have found it tough to "let go" and allow God to take over. I have also had somewhat of a rough time learning to trust God to do the things He has promised in His word, mostly I'm sure, because of the "fatherly" image bestowed on me by my earthly father. Ok, I'm not sure why I told you all of this other than to explain that sometimes I need a little extra encouragement from someone who has "been there". It's just nice to have someone to assure me that I am still on the right path, even though it seems like not much is happening in my life at the moment. I know that God is in control and He does things at the pace that's best for us, but sometimes I wish that He would just zap me and poof....... I would be an exact duplicate of Jesus when He walked the earth!

I see you have added some links to other relevant sites, and have even looked into a couple of them. I look forward to any help that you can provide to get me further down that path toward my ultimate goal of completely dying to myself and becoming a vessel for Jesus to live through. Thanks for the encouragement, whether you meant it as that or not. It's tough finding people who will agree with this walk. As you know, most are stuck as I was, trying to appease and manipulate God into approving and blessing them.

BTW, this is not the end of this conversation by any means, as I am sure I will have other reason to pick your brain. I thank God for you brother that you are willing to stop and reach back to give others a hand up.

God Bless,
Roger

[Bondslavenchrist]

Dear Roger,

No, I did not consider this conversation over at all. I know we all will have to talk with each other. encourage one another. admonish, maybe even correct each other. We all NEED to hear from others at the same time, we must be obedient ONLY to the Lord.

A quick example of what I am saying is in the Book of Acts when the Prophet Agabus warned Paul of the bondsd he would be facing when he went to Jerusalem. Paul received the warning but he KNEW what God's will was, so he went there anyway.

Yes, I understand about self-reliance. Here is a link to something I wrote called Intelligence is a Trap.

http://z12.invisionfree.com/Apostles_Den/i...owtopic=166&hl=

I do not brag in what I am saying here, just bringing forth the truth. I am smart. Very smart. According to man, my intelligence is bordering on genius. But that plus $5 will get me a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

I may have more smarts and certain talents than others, but we ALL must come to God the same way; i.e. die to self, lay down our lives, take up the cross and follow Jesus. There is no other way.

No amount of study, learning, degrees, prayer, fasting or anything else will ever make me more acceptable to God. The ONLY thing that works with God is absolute submission and Faith in Him to accomplish what He has promised.

I have had many call me arrogant, prideful, unloving, a heretic, etc. The big reason is, they could not accept the FACTS that they had to lay down all the things they had accomplished in order to find God. Sorry, but He just does not accept our self-originated works as anything but what they are>>>>>GARBAGE!

So, I have been learning this life over the last 8-10 yrs actively. Now I did not understand what I was learning even back 15 yrs ago. That was preparatory for being taught by the Holy Spirit. Nor did I understand except in the very crudest way that I was learning about holiness, righteousness, and purity as I now understand it. I had NO ONE to teach me anything except the Lord.

I did not have a clue which way I was going except more and more I saw that it was counter to what the Church did and preached (in general) We all know they talk about dying to self, and letting go and letting God and all of that. but that is about as far as it goes.

When it comes to really living this way, they get angry, almost violent, and will not listen. They can offer no scriptural argument, but will attack with ideas of arrogance, pride, harshness, rudeness, and of course heresy always hangs in there.

But they can NEVER point to something you have said or written to shows what they are talking about. It is only something they FEEL!

There is the great answer. They follow their feelings and do not operate in FAITH! They are led by their flesh and NOT by the Holy Spirit. This is NOT to say they are not saved, but if they do not change, if they do not allow the Lord to crucify their self-lives, only God knows what their final destination will be. They are operating out of their flesh and the Bible says all who do this shall die. I talked about this in the Children of God article.

NO, I do not know everything. I am NOT an expert. I am not a scholar. I am a believer and truly learning to be a biblical disciple; it is why I use to the screen name bondslavenchrist, because that is what I desire greatly to be; just like Paul and Jesus.

But I will not compromise either and that very thing has caused more trouble between me and other believers that I care to even think about. They would rather be nice than truthful, they would rather have peace than confronting sin. Unfortunately, they have no backing in the Bible.

But I digress.

I am here. I will do whatever I can to help. I also have an online friend who monitors Authentic Christianity. Joe Mydock has been a great help. Sometimes he is slow in responding, but all the more better as the answers he gives have caused me to have greater spiritual understanding and drawn closer to Him.

His email can be found on that site if you would like. We have talked a few times on the phone and he has been very encouraging. He actually knew Steve who helped him come into this life.

Me personally, I am on the road but have not quite entered His realm of glory. I have learned much, but have much more to learn. Right now, He is making many of the things I have learned over the last several years a reality in my life.

How can I say this? I am changing, becoming more like Jesus, yet I am NOT trying to change. I am not striving to do things that might bring about change. I am learning to trust God and believe Him to cleanse and change me on the inside, and that is what is happening. If you have not experienced it, it can be difficult to grasp, but it is HIS truth.

I hope this helps some. Often, I find I am learning to trust Him and allow HIM to determine the outcome and just trusting that what has happened or been said comes from Him. The more I do this with confidence, the more I find HE is the One doing the writing. Does that make sense?

Ah well, Praise God anyway. I try to check my email and webiste several times a day so if you or anyone else needs something I will be there. God bless!

a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

[Happy Trails]

This conversation was very uplifting to my walk with God. Both of you have described what God has been doing in my life for the last 6 years.

I truly believe that what you are discussing and experiencing is the "normal" walk of faith .
We can see it in Romans. The institutions are usually stumbling blocks to this "normal" walk of faith. God has generally sent me into the institutions to plow, plant, or water, more than to "glean".

Thank you bondservant for defining what faith truly is. I wonder how the institutions can miss that basic foundation? Their definition of faith is quoting 1 or 2 verses or worse yet, telling you faith is "positive thinking and speaking it into existence". It reminds me of witchcraft....believe it, speak it (incantations) and it will happen.

It is good to be in touch with others on the narrow path.

[MidahArts]

New Creation: Here is my take. We cannot discover what we should for wishing to 'do' something rather than to realize. Because our doing is invariably a substitute for His working. And somehow we miss who HE is because we don't see His working. And invariably we already think we do know, though. And that is the confounding of us. We do not yet. At least, until we find the point of brokenness, that very point of surrender, we still do not realize. And there is one. For there is a point where we discover our complete helplessness and inability. And it is at that point that we discover who HE is in full.

Prior to that we have a valid, yet somehow superficial understanding. Suffice it to be said that it is our 'wilderness' wandering experience. (And it also has a purpose.) But there is a place that HE wishes to bring us to that is beyond that. Your knowledge of scripture will no doubt suffice here, to clue you in.

Anyway, it is the most personal place in relationship that there is. It is the most personal, and direct. But until we are ready, we will not discover it. And to be ready we must be willing, by faith, to have His will done, whatever the cost. And though that sounds frightening, what it really is is total trust. And that is all that He asks. And after all, can not we?

And we enter total trust by faith. Nothing more, even if we do not really know what that means, or entails. The point is that we commit to it, and let Him know in certain terms that it is the position we want to take. It is then upon HIM to perform even what we have commited. Because only He can, though it is our committment. And that is the point. Only HE can.

And that is our freedom in Christ, that we can rest upon Him to know and to do as we rejoice in His ability to perform what only HE can. And Paul called it His 'rest'. So don't try to figure it out. Just commit.

[NewCreation]

Thanks MidahArts for your post. I'm sorry I haven't acknowledged this earlier, but I just now saw it this morning for the first time. I normally check in here at least once a day but we were out of town over the holidays with no internet access.

You have given good information and I appreciate your help.

BTW, welcome to the forum. Even though I don't post here much I am always looking for good information from others and sometimes I even join in.

Again, thanks for posting and I hope to hear more from you.

God Bless,
Roger