Malaysian Flies P-51, Cyrils P-51 Mustang in Normandy.

[Bellakelpie]

A couple of points to offer to anyone else deciding to model a 122 Squadron Mustang III.

While researching information on Jimmy Talalla's Mustang III, I have learnt the following.

122 Squadron were fairly loose on Spinner Colours. Initially all 122 Squadron aircraft had White spinners, but over time, as replacement aircraft arrived at the squadron, spinner colours of individual aircraft changed. The main colour became Yellow, but White, Red, Pale Blue and Black were also used.

FB-226, was initially flown by a Canadian, (Dr) Ed Roemmele, who upon being interviewed about the squadron in 2010, was unsure at 1st of the colour. "..We had more important things to remember than spinner colours..."
When presented with a model of FB226, MT-K, (the 2nd MT-K he had flown, the 1st was written off due to battle damage) which the model maker had given a Red spinner, he said ".. That looks about right.." So that colour has been officially assigned to FB-226.

In the photo of Jimmy Talalla on the V.I. page about the 2 brothers, the Mustang Jimmy is standing in front of has a dark coloured spinner. The question is, is it Black or Red? I favour Red as the known colour of the prop blades are Black and the spinner is definitely a different shade.

But another question arises. Which aircraft is he standing in front of? As pilots often flew different aircraft over a few days, it could be any of 122 Squadron's Mustangs.

So I guess anyone wishing to model FB-187 could chose any of the colours I mentioned and still be right. After all, there is no one left alive that can challenge the colour chosen.
-----------------------------------------------
Invasion Stripes.

I have also learnt that contrary to what many scale drawings of 122 Squadron's Mustang III's portray, the usual Black and White Invasion Stripes were NOT painted on the wing undersides of their aircraft until some time in 1945, well after the D-Day invasion.

This information comes from Dr Roemmele's private photo collection, of photos taken by him of 122 Squadron Mustangs in November 1944, which clearly show no invasion stripes present on the underside of the wings.

Two other things that I can also verify, is that FB-187 was written off after it crashed near Great Bardfield, Essex on 20th February 1945. (Pilot's name no known to me, but he was killed in the crash)

FB-226 was severely damaged on 1st March 1945, after it struck the ground during a low level strafing pass. Piloted at the time by Lt Col Werner Christie, of the Royal Norwegian Airforce, (C/O of 122 Squadron at the time) it had both wing leading edges perforated and the starboard stabilizer cut through almost all the way to the elevator, but returned safely to base. It was declared a write off.

Werner Christie died in 2010.

Hope this helps in the future guys.


[U][B][U][B]

This post has been edited by Bellakelpie on Mar 10 2013, 07:05 PM

[rtfoe]

Hi David,

Thanks for the fantastic reference details on 122 squadron and the planes that Jimmy flew.

If only these reference had come earlier I would have built MT-R and had the correct clean undersides devoid of the invasion stripes. Reference at the time of build only refer to Jimmy only having one kill and one probable and was astonished as to why he was called an Ace. Thank you for clarifying this.

I only wonder if the practice of kill marks painted on the cockpit sides was evident seeing as the planes rotated amongst pilots.

Cheers,
Richard

[rtfoe]

Thomas,

I bought my own since I saw it in the newstand. My sister so proud she bought one too.

Cheers,
Richard

[Bellakelpie]

Further information as to the fate of Mustang III FB-187

"..... Flight Lieutenant Ralph Osler WEBSTER. No.122 Squadron. Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. Killed In a Flying Accident on the 20th February 1945 aged 22.

Ralph was the son of Lt.-Col. William Joseph Webster, M.C., and Janet Hay Webster, of Kasauli, Punjab, India. On the 20th February 1945 Ralph Webster was piloting a Mustang Mk.III Fighter (FB187) on an authorised Practice Flight, which included aerobatics. The aircraft took from Andrewsfield aerodrome in Essex at 14.00hrs and was seen by eyewitnesses at 15.20 at a height of about 10,000ft. At this point an explosion was heard and parts of the aircraft became detached, including the Port wing. The aircraft went into a spin and plunged to the ground in a vertical dive and crashed a ¼ of a mile North West of Great Bardfield, Essex. The Pilot, an experienced flyer on his second tour of operations, was unable to escape and was killed instantly. He is buried in the Brookwood Military Cemetery, Surrey...."

[Bellakelpie]

Hi rtfoe

Don't have too many regrets. Your model is one of the best I have seen. You did build it using all the information available at the time. No one can criticise you for that.

The fact is that Jimmy did fly MT-K (FB-226) remember, and would have flown it more than once, and would have done so in 1945. After all, FB-226 survived until March 1945 and Jimmy was still flying with the squadron then, well after he was aclaimed an "ace".

So your excellent model is correct for the early 1945 period after the squadron had the Invasion Stripes painted on their aircraft.

But what we don't know is if he was flying FB-266 when he scored one of his "kills". That would have been recorded only in his Pilots logbook, which maybe is still in existance. Maybe his granddaughter, Dineen Talalla has it?

------------------------------------------------------------

More about Jimmy:

Jimmy bagged his 1st 2 kills in his previous RAF squadron, 118, (aircraft squadron code "NK") flying Spitfires. (Mk II's and then Mk V's) His 1st was an FW-190, so chances are he was flying a Mk V when that happened.

He was with 118 squadron when the German Battleships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, along with the heavy crusier, Prinz Eugen did the famous "Channel Dash" up the English Channel, right under the noses of the British. This occurred on 11th February, 1942.

118 Squadron, including Jimmy, flew operations on that day, protecting RAF and Royal Navy Bombers trying to attack the 3 ships.

You can read more at :

http://www.rafjever.org/118squadhistory2.htm.

Note though that author of that article has got Jimmy's birthplace horribly wrong!!!

Further down the page in the article, are 3 photo's with Jimmy in them. The 1st is of Jimmy meeting the then Queen, the 2nd is of 118 Squadron pilots resting after taking part in air action in the ill fated Dieppe Raid and a 3rd photo taken in July 1941 of Jimmy, then still a Flight Sergeant, on the wing of a 118 squadron Spitfire Mk 2.

Another link to Jimmy from that site notes that Jimmy died in Llangerdine , Wales U.K, on 18th August 1973. (He left Malaysia, bought a Pub in Wales and settled there.)

-------------------------------------------------------

In answer to your question re personal "kill" markings on RAF aircraft.

This was a common practice among senior pilots early in the war, especially during the Battle of Britain period. There are photo's of people like Robert Stanford Tuck in the cockpit of their planes, with visible "kill" markings on the fuselage side. Also late in the war, a few such as Pierre Clostermann, with kill markings on his 2nd Hawker Tempest, (JF-E) which he also gave the name "Le Grande Charles" to.

However by the time Jimmy had joined 122 Squadron, only senior pilots, such as the squadron commander, had a designated aircraft.
Jimmy would have been flying 2 or 3 different aircraft. His principal plane and one or two alternatives, when the principal one was not available (for whatever reason-- maintenance, battle damage repair, or comandeered by a more senior pilot.)
We know he flew FB-187 and FB-226, but which was his principal and which was his alternative is not known.

For this reason, and also the fact that aircraft attrition in ground attack squadrons, (which 122 Squadron was mainly doing by that stage of the war) was, after the 1944 Invasion, quite high, the practice of painting individual "kill" markings on an aircraft had ceased in most squadrons.
The service life of an aircraft at that time could sometimes only be a few days, so in many cases, there was just not enough time to do it.

My friend, Squadron Leader F.A.O " Tony" Gaze DFC and 2 Bars, O.A.M. (Tony is a double ace and flew over 400 combat missions, all in Spitfires) never did it. He commented to me that it was a very "American thing" to do. He also told me that Douglas Bader, who once commanded the wing that Tony's squadron was part of, never did it either and discouraged the practice in the wing that he led.

More on Jimmy Talalla is appearing on the internet all the time. That is good, as we can now slowly build a more complete picture of an almost forgotten hero.

Cheers
David

Cheers


This post has been edited by Bellakelpie on Mar 14 2013, 06:02 PM

[rtfoe]

Really fantastic reference to Jimmy's exploits, David and thanks.

I enjoyed the read. Now that there is more material on Jimmy I don't suppose you have any on Henry Talalla?

Again his data is vague including the versions of the Typhoon he flew in. I'm not even sure he flew the earlier 1B with the side door canopy as he entered the fight later than Jimmy.

His no. 182 squadron used both the earlier and later versions of the Typhoon 1B including the 1A and that's all they say. Since I'm in the midst of building Henry's plane, I'm only guessing his insignia markings XM Y as per the reference picture.

Cheers,
Richard

This post has been edited by rtfoe on Mar 12 2013, 03:12 PM

[Bellakelpie]

Hi Richard,
I have replied in your Typhoon build thread, which I think is a more appropriate place to talk about Henry Talalla and the Typhoon in general.
Cheers
David