Title: Contest Drop Outs
Description: what should be done?
janelle - May 2, 2006 06:58 AM (GMT)
In the months that i've been a member, I've seen Sims Contest Forum go through some changes: membership has almost doubled and there are a lot more contests going on at any given time. But as a result of the increase of contests and contestants, there has also been an increase in some less-than-desirable behaviors.
First, to define out terms:
Withdrawls:contestants who leave a contest because of computer errors, personal situations, etc. --we are not debating withdrawls, these are contestants who leave because they HAVE to, not by choice.
Drop Outs: contestants who leave for trivial and/or inconsequential reasons, i.e dont like their makeovers or the next photoshoot or the host or..... etcetera.
No Shows:contestants who fail to turn in a picture by the deadline, and who do not ask for extensions or alert the host that they need more time. They simply stop participating in the thread and contest without a word of explaination. (this is happening more and more frequently, unfortunately, if the past few contests i've judged are any indication.)
So here's the debate topic: what do we do about irresponsible contestants? I know some hosts are vocal about keeping a sort of personal blacklist for un-dependable contestants, but should there be a more formal system? If so, what? Formal or informal warnings? A temporary ban from participating in contests? Or, should drop-outs simply be considered a part of the whole contest experience and ignored?
avato - May 2, 2006 07:18 AM (GMT)
Well, first off I thank you for clearly designating the terms before we get started :D Now, as for consequences:
I think rightoff the bat, I would like to say that, whilst I do not appreciate drop outs, I think that IN SOME CASES, these are justified. Maybe not completely, but if you really don't like the way the other contestants, host, or judges are aacting, that can be coped with. Even things as trivial as makeovers and "next photoshoots", can be justified. I think a lot of dop outs are ridiculous but to some people the reason is reliable , and I don't think there should be tough penalties on them. As for no shows.....
NO SHOWS CAN NOT BE TOLERATED . They are completely rude and it's like they don't even care. Even if you drop out, it is FAR MORE CONSIDERATE to the host and hurts contests A LOT LESS, as fill ins can be used or eliminations adjusted.
I'll probably add more to this rant later, but for now I just had to get this off my chest...
macthekat - May 2, 2006 07:18 AM (GMT)
I know that I have droped out/withdrawl a few times the last moth because of my personal situation right now with that said:
I know that I am doubtful about having someone as a judge if I know they have droped out of a lot of contest lately, then I will pm the person back and ask if they have thing sorted out, so the have time to judge then needed. This is not a bulletproof system, but I give people a second change and I think people have the right for that. And it shows that we do care about them.
I always count on people dropping out and take more people in then I intended from the start. If I have a large contest running I will be more strict about deadlines then then I only have 5-7 people.
I think the big problem about dropouts is that people tend not to check their calender before they enter a contest - if you know that you have to go on hollyday for a week, two weeks from now - it is not a good idea to join a contest that have a shot that week unless you know how to work around that problem.
I think a part of the problem is that it can be hard to see then the round stops as the deadline is not clearly stated *going to start it in my own contest in a sec* and therefore some people overlook the deadline. I know that I don't always check four sites backwards to see when the deadline is if I think I know then it is.
Simaholic111 - May 2, 2006 12:23 PM (GMT)
We've been trying to figure out what to do with this since several months ago but we came to the conclusion that there really isnt much that can be done. Its such a large thing that if we start banning people for it we would eventually have most of the board banned and that would jeopardize the forum since we arent that large to begin with.
So really its the judge's duty to make sure they have some sort of backup plan like have a list of pending members that are automatically in the contest (during its beginning stages) if someone has to drop out. I also like the idea of the "blacklist", I personally will be doing this when I start MSCG3. Anyone who has dropped out of a contest of mine or is notorious for dropping out from contests in general will have trouble getting a spot in that contest.
Maybe if more and more judges do this, the notorious drop outs of the forum will rethink what they are doing and be more careful and less frequent with it? I hope so.
Will - May 2, 2006 12:54 PM (GMT)
ah drop outs, I had 5 this cycle in SNTM. So that leaves 5 girls who actually took part full time in the contest. No I know that one person internet went out, two with school, but two who just well, never said anything.
What I hate the most is when someone drops out because they have too many things going so they say, then as soon as theyre out of yours theyre in 6 more. That really bugs me.
blacklisting ia a great idea. I already have one going as to whom i am werry(sp) about entering my contests.
Ill add more later too.
drenee81 - May 2, 2006 01:25 PM (GMT)
Like what's already been said, it's hard to do anything about the drop outs. We can "blacklist" contestants who drop out/don't show but then how will they ever get another chance to join another contest? And like I mentioned when this was discussed with the other mods, hosts can be responsible for making backup plans or whatever. But what if you *can't*. I'm hosting the Hip Hop Contest with 2 other members and we *thought* we'd at least get 3/4 of the contestants we wanted. But we ended up with half. So we changed our way of doing the rounds and judging. Then 2 contestants went MIA so we were down to 4 and then 1 more lost her sim when backing up her game. So we were stuck with only 3 contestants. If we could have backups, we sure as heck would have loved them. But that was beyond our control. But we enjoyed having those 3 contestants and I think they enjoyed the contest.
I really don't know if there can be a happy medium because like I said, people who are "blacklisted" won't ever be able to join the "more popular" contests and given another chance. And those hosts of contests who don't have the privilage of having a hoard of people jumping to join their contest can't have a backup plan that includes backup contestants. And you can only cut so many photoshoots.
macthekat - May 2, 2006 01:49 PM (GMT)
drenee81 - I agree with you. I do not wish to backlist anyone.
Most people have good resones for dropping out it is just sad then it happens in the small contest wiht only 5 people. Then you run a contest of 25 people it shuld not really matter if 2 or 3 people drop out. Naturally there are a few (very few) people you just can't trust to hand in their pictures, but most people who drop out of contests have good resons to do so. I just wished that people would look at their calender before joining a contest.
Simaholic111 - May 2, 2006 03:01 PM (GMT)
Its hard to not blacklist someone who you've seen drop out of countless contests. Ive had members enter my last two contests and I thought "uh oh, I know you drop out a lot"...and I wasnt wrong, they did end up dropping out.
And I agree, its most aggravating when they drop out and you see them enter other contests right after. Ive seen this too so personally it would be hard to not blacklist these people.
FrostedFlake8 - May 2, 2006 03:03 PM (GMT)
Just a suggestion, perhaps if someone drops out of a contest for no reason (no notice, no photo, no explainatio) then they could be put on Probation and only allowed to join one contest at a time. This way, people who are "black listed" can still have their one contest to try and prove that they can be reliable. If the contestant further proves that they cannot be reliable with their one contest, then they could be put on a more serious form of Probation where they cannot join any contests for a period of time (say, one month). After that month, then they can only join one contest like before. If they STILL cannot be reliable, then I sincerely think they should be banned from joining any contests for a SIGNIFICANT period of time.
Just an Idea :)
Simaholic111 - May 2, 2006 03:10 PM (GMT)
Thats a good idea :). I think we thought about something similar to this but concluded that it might be a lot for us to keep track of since so many people do drop out.
So I say it should be up to the host on what they want to do. Not every host will blacklist, some will. It should be up to them.
FrostedFlake8 - May 2, 2006 03:16 PM (GMT)
From what I've noticed, it isn't necessarily a lot of people dropping out of contests... it tends to be the same people joining a number of contests and then dropping out of each one.
So Person A joins 3 contests, and drops out of each one - There's three drop outs, but the same person.
Perhaps one or two people could be incharge of "Policing" contests by keeping records of who drops out of what when and for what reasons and then inform Contest Hosts at the beginning of their contests to be on the look-out for certain members. Then the host could decide if they want these members who are on Probation to be allowed to join their contests. Kind of like, "Take them at your own risk"
If a contestant drops out, the host could give a "Report" to the "Police" and then the drop out will be added to sort of a Master List with dates, contests, reasons, etc.
Simaholic111 - May 2, 2006 03:19 PM (GMT)
|Then the host could decide if they want these members who are on Probation to be allowed to join their contests. Kind of like, "Take them at your own risk"|
But in the end, that is blacklisting again.
FrostedFlake8 - May 2, 2006 03:23 PM (GMT)
True. I guess there's no way around the black listing if we really wanted to do something about the Drop Out problem. It's sort of a Catch 22... Take these people and be fair to them but endanger your contest, or reject them because of their mistakes and preserve your contest.
Personally, I would LIKE to take people into contests based on their talent and such... But I would rather have someone who's not as talented but reliable than a someone who is an amazing artist but drops out of contests.
Simaholic111 - May 2, 2006 03:30 PM (GMT)
I agree with you :) I would like to give everyone a chance but if they are ruining their own reputation here then there isnt much that can be done.
I hope we eventually figure something out. Drop outs really ruin a host's plans. I remember a drop out completely ruined a teamwork round I had in MSCG2 and also ruined a round where I assigned something else.
Then there was the boy bunny contest...Im serious, even though it was small (only 8 girls), we seriously just had only 1 actual elimination the whole contest b/c someone would drop out each week.
FrostedFlake8 - May 2, 2006 04:57 PM (GMT)
Haha... As a contestant in MSCG2... I was thankful for dropouts! Without all the drop outs, I highly doubt that my Sascha would have made it to the top two!
As for SimBoy Bunny... That was annoying. As a judge, I felt like I wasn't doing anything because all of the judgings were for nothing since eliminations were by default!
I really hope something can be figured out... I know for the latest cycle of Face of Syndicated Sims, we started with 10, and by the second photoshoot, only had 6.
ShortyBoo - May 2, 2006 05:27 PM (GMT)
I think there are a few good reasons for dropping out of a contest other than computer problems, etc.
First off, I think if the host is very rude and pushy, I would drop out. That takes all the fun out of a contest for me. There's just no reason for it, and it shouldn't happen.
The biggest issue I have though is when a contest starts out, then after a round or two, the host disappears for several weeks making it seem like the contest is cancelled. Then, all in the sudden, the host pops back up with no explaination and acts as if the long break never happened. This has happened several times and it really bothers me. It's even worse when the host just never finishes the contest at all.
Simaholic111 - May 2, 2006 06:02 PM (GMT)
|The biggest issue I have though is when a contest starts out, then after a round or two, the host disappears for several weeks making it seem like the contest is cancelled. Then, all in the sudden, the host pops back up with no explaination and acts as if the long break never happened. This has happened several times and it really bothers me. It's even worse when the host just never finishes the contest at all.|
I agree. I say in this case, you cant blame the cotnestants if they do drop out if they have an irresponsible host like this. This is why I also part of the reason why I "blacklist" a host before joining a contest of theirs. As great as a contest may seem, if I feel the host is irresponsible like Shorty mentioned or a few other reasons, I wont join their contest.
avato - May 2, 2006 06:39 PM (GMT)
|If a contestant drops out, the host could give a "Report" to the "Police" and then the drop out will be added to sort of a Master List with dates, contests, reasons, etc. |
It's like the secret police!!! :(
| I know for the latest cycle of Face of Syndicated Sims, we started with 10, and by the second photoshoot, only had 6.|
I was one of these, but I did tell you! :( It was a tough time for me, and I know I could only get on the internet for short periods of time to run my contests.
And yeah, I can speak from experience too. We started with 7 or so members and I only got two and a half entries for Round 2.
Margarita - May 2, 2006 08:27 PM (GMT)
|it tends to be the same people joining a number of contests and then dropping out of each one.|
Exactly. I'm sorry, but I have no time for people who drop out. I do wait for them to drop out THREE TIMES before they are black listed. It's also to the point where I'm VERY hesitant to have new members join my contets until I've seen them around more.
The main reason I do this is because of the nature of my contests..they are generally really small. I pick only a few people from a lot of applicants, and then a drop out in the third round ends up taking someone's place who might have been there all the way through. It makes me so angry!
I also know what you mean about hosts who get inactive. But there IS a policy on the board about that (i thought?)
brielle14 - May 2, 2006 08:56 PM (GMT)
Hmm...there might be.
It would make sense that you have to follow through a contest as a requirement for other contests. Dropping out doesn't count as following through, you have to either win or be eliminated.
But then I guess some people would just submit bad pictures on purpose to be eliminated...I guess there really isn't a right answer to this dilemma. :dunno:
macthekat - May 2, 2006 09:08 PM (GMT)
I have said it before and will proberly do it again:
I do not like eliminations at all. I know I hate being eliminated even then I know that the other contesters did better, so I do not eliminat people in my contest. That do have the effect that some people will drop out half way if they don't think it is fun anymore. Then I do think it is ok - the contest can be something else then what you did expected. I just don't like it then people do not turn their pictures in wihtout explanation - if someone says - "I do not have fun wiht this contest and will withdrore" Then I think that is at least honest.
brielle14 - May 2, 2006 09:20 PM (GMT)
I don't mind eliminations. The point system (over an entire contest) takes the whole portfolio into account and every single shot counts. If you do really, really awful one round it can drag you down the rest of the contest. At least with eliminations, consistency isn't a deciding factor until later.
Cody - May 2, 2006 09:28 PM (GMT)
Well ... I'm probably blacklistd by a few of you then. I was a no show for like 3 or four contests I joined when I first joined. My computer died for like a month, and I think I told all the hosts what happened when I got back ...
I like the probation thing. Except, the banning part. I think if somebody drops out of a given amount of contests without actual reasons, they should only be allowed in one at a time. And, the only way to get out of probation would be to go all the way through the contest with a decent attitude. No complaing about every trivial thing or disrespecting the other contestant and judges ... I dunno - I'm still new ... It's proably not my place to say ...
brielle14 - May 2, 2006 09:41 PM (GMT)
:hug: No, your opinion is worth just as much as anyone else's.
I'm not crazy about the banning idea either. One of the things that's nice about SimContest is that it's not incredibly strict, as is more friendly and approachable. The probation is alright, I think that's a good way to make sure people become more dedicated but still give them a chance.
Margarita - May 2, 2006 09:42 PM (GMT)
|My computer died for like a month, and I think I told all the hosts what happened when I got back ...|
as long as they have a reason, i don't put people on the list. mine only has like three people on it, and they aren't even on here anymore :lol:
I really really hate eliminating people..i usually put it off for several rounds in my contests. But people seem to like eliminations..they think it's more exciting and more of a challenge, so I keep them. Still.. that's usually why i keep the contestant numbers so small, so we can do several rounds before anyone has to go, and that way everyone gets some fun out of the contest :)
Simaholic111 - May 2, 2006 10:28 PM (GMT)
|But people seem to like eliminations..they think it's more exciting and more of a challenge, so I keep them|
Lol, Im one of those people :lol:
I personally think that if I'm doing horribly in a contest I would rather be eliminated than be forced to stay all the way through to the end when you can guess you have no chance of winning (of course I would still try my best. I have never actually tried to have a terrible photo just to get eliminated). I also think eliminations sort of give the other contestants, who arent eliminated of course, a sense of accomplishment and that you are getting closer and closer to winning as someone is eliminated each week.
But Im not against non-elimination contests either :) And I like your idea Rita, having the first 3-4 rounds be non elimination weeks to give people a chance.
brielle14 - May 2, 2006 10:42 PM (GMT)
|I personally think that if I'm doing horribly in a contest I would rather be eliminated than be forced to stay all the way through to the end when you can guess you have no chance of winning|
That's exactly how I feel, one bad photo seems to more or less ruin all of your chances. :dunno:
I think it's a good idea to use the point system for the last two rounds though.
ShortyBoo - May 2, 2006 10:59 PM (GMT)
I like the point systems with eliminations. Like the person with the highest (or lowest, whichever is worse) goes home each week. That way things are really fair because the portfolio is taken into consideration for the whole contest.
drenee81 - May 2, 2006 11:01 PM (GMT)
|I personally think that if I'm doing horribly in a contest I would rather be eliminated than be forced to stay all the way through to the end when you can guess you have no chance of winning (of course I would still try my best. I have never actually tried to have a terrible photo just to get eliminated). |
Yea, I actually tried that to get one of my girls eliminated (doing a not so great photo... tho it wasn't HORRIBLE I don't think) and it backfired and both my girls got eliminated :lmao: :giggle: . I like eliminations though, as a judge and as a contestant. I like sitting on the edge of my chair reading the judgings wondering if I'm on the verge of going home or not. As a judge, I get kind of tired judging the same 8 or so people after so long. Especially if I don't think their photos are very nice to look at. Let's send some of these people home!!
|That's exactly how I feel, one bad photo seems to more or less ruin all of your chances.|
Brielle, not necessarily. I can only refer to my SNTM days cuz those were the bigger contests I was in here. Davina had some not so great photos at the beginning of the contest and I was sure I wasn't going to win cuz of some of those.
Anyway, what were we talking about? Oh, I guess individual blacklists kept by hosts who want to do them are fine. We won't be able to do the probation thing and banning is not an option at all. As frustrating as it may be, this is for a game and we're here for fun. I wouldn't mind being the keeper of "The Black List" if we were to ever do that :beware: :beware: but I probably won't have the time and I don't follow every contest anymore either because I don't have the interest. But if the hosts PMed the keeper of the black list, that could work.
But should something formal like that be done? :dunno:
brielle14 - May 2, 2006 11:05 PM (GMT)
|That's exactly how I feel, one bad photo seems to more or less ruin all of your chances.|
Oh! I meant that about non-eliminating contests.
I guess you could have a blacklist but then is there really a second chance? How do you redeem yourself from the blacklist?
drenee81 - May 2, 2006 11:13 PM (GMT)
And that's a good question. I think someone said if they finish a contest all the way through, then they can be taken off the list. :dunno:
brielle14 - May 2, 2006 11:14 PM (GMT)
Hmmm...but if they're blacklisted, how can they get into a contest in the first place? :confused:
drenee81 - May 2, 2006 11:15 PM (GMT)
It's up to the host to decide if they want to keep those members blacklisted from participating in their contest. Not all have to do that. That way there's a chance for them to redeem themselves.
Cody - May 2, 2006 11:53 PM (GMT)
I don't think I like the whole black list thing .. I know if I was hosting something I'd be too afraid to put someone on there into the contest ... Eh, maybe no one else would ... Maybe the hosts could just have there own penalties like no entry prizes, or their own black lists, something/
Simaholic111 - May 3, 2006 12:09 AM (GMT)
|Maybe the hosts could just have there own penalties...or their own black lists, something|
Thats what most hosts do now :)
|And that's a good question. I think someone said if they finish a contest all the way through, then they can be taken off the list. |
|Hmmm...but if they're blacklisted, how can they get into a contest in the first place?|
|It's up to the host to decide if they want to keep those members blacklisted from participating in their contest. Not all have to do that|
Yeah, they sure would have a hard time getting into another contest. But I guess if they dont have legitimate reasons when they dropped out, they did it to themselves. Im sure there would be some hosts who would ignore the blacklist and wouldnt mind, but most would not want a person on that list in their contest.
My own personal blacklist isnt that long either. I actually sort of forgot who I had on there in the first place lol (I havent forgotten about 1 or 2 of them though :beware:). But when I do select people for my next contest, I will pick contestants by how reliable they are..."oh, this person never drops out Ill select them"..."Ive never seen this person drop out either theyre automatically in" and skip over the people Im not sure about until after I get all of the reliable members in. Sort of like looking at the glass half full instead of half empty.
Margarita - May 3, 2006 02:18 AM (GMT)
simaholic, i go through the same process. Honestly, that's what application rounds are to me these days, not who has a pretty sim, but who has been more reliable around the board. and i always leave one or two 'drop out spots'..extra spots that i wasn't originally going to put in, just to leave a coushin for if/when people drop (i tend to fill those with people who are a little unreliable but i'd like to see have antoher shot)
the new cycle of VS is going to have a new method for application, definately a test run
Arigata - May 3, 2006 03:09 AM (GMT)
I think it would be good for the newbies like me to know which hosts abandoned their own contests without explanation, so we don't waste our time and effort.
Simaholic111 - May 3, 2006 03:16 AM (GMT)
There really arent that many that have done that, just a few. I think its ok if the host announces to everyone that they will have to be gone for sometime due to something unfortunate...but Ive seen a few (very few, maybe just like 1-2) who have just disappeared without notice. I fortunately wasnt in any of these contests though.
|I think it would be good for the newbies like me to know which hosts abandoned their own contests without explanation|
If anyone does, please dont mention their names in this thread :)
avato - May 3, 2006 04:57 AM (GMT)
Wow. Abandoning a contest, no explanation? :o
And now, just after we're discussing this... I had to drop out of almost all of m contests :( So sad!!
Will - May 3, 2006 01:07 PM (GMT)
I dont think of of the bad hostes post much now anyways.
I must say that I do not usually select new members into my contests. Especially if they have no idea what is going on and they just seem like they want to enter to enter. It makes no sence to me. I also am very unsure of selecting drop outers, even if they had a good reason. I need to know that they will definetly be good, and stay in.
For some members from other forums, I think it would be good to see how they are at their other forums, if they dont drop out, then there is no reason that they shouldnt be allowed in, BUT what if they forget or lost the link here?
anways, sim I cant wait for MSCG 3, I already have a sim ready, I know thats off topic.